Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Post by RIP » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:50 pm

As stated before, I cannot comment on the Thor issue. But as for watching a beloved character going down an unwelcome path, I always resented strong women being showhorned with a mother/wife storyline that just didn't sit well with me. Even if said woman was capable and very much her own person, at some point it seems she must become a mother... and a stay-at-home-mom, too. Sorry but why should every mother stay at home while her husband works?

Regarding Wonder Woman, this is exactly what I meant when I stated I wasn't happy with the ending of the movie.
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Post by JM1776 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:40 pm

RIP wrote:As stated before, I cannot comment on the Thor issue.


I'll allow you to take my word for it. :wink:
But as for watching a beloved character going down an unwelcome path, I always resented strong women being showhorned with a mother/wife storyline that just didn't sit well with me. Even if said woman was capable and very much her own person, at some point it seems she must become a mother... and a stay-at-home-mom, too. Sorry but why should every mother stay at home while her husband works?
Certainly in most cases a woman's maternal instinct makes her the more optimal choice to stay at home ... but it's absurd to assume that it's invariably the best way to go. I'd think a truly mature couple would weigh any number of factors before making that decision. I do think, though, that an au pair or nanny when a kid is extremely young a bad option. Children have a fundamental right to spend quality time with their parents.
Regarding Wonder Woman, this is exactly what I meant when I stated I wasn't happy with the ending of the movie.
I think we're in complete agreement, here.

We can both die, now. :JD
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Post by RIP » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:54 am

Yeah actually I kinda wanna live a little longer, but thanks for the offer anyways :)

Besides, I must admit I am kind of weirded out that we actually share an opinion for once.

Let me put the whole childcare thing into some perspective: Here a couple will recive child-raising time to be allocated along their wishes. The mother will be taken off work 3 months before the calculated birth. She is not even permitted to work but will still recieve full pay. Sometimes, if the mother's or child's life is in danger, she will be taken out of work earlier. This so happened to a friend who didn't have enough pox antibodies in her system and she was working with children.

Once the child is born, the mother will have another 3 months off work, with full pay. After that the family can decide how they want to proceed. One parent can stay at home - again at full pay - until the child is three. The parents may also switch around who cares for the kid. Also, you cannot be fired over this and any disadvantage you experience (and can prove) is punisheable by court. Did I mention the employer is required to give her time to breastfeed three times a day?

In addition, many cities and states offer free childcare for children after that. Or even during that time. The child will be brought to a crib of the parents' choosing and - depending on funding - will not have to pay a single dime. My city is blatantly low on cash so we would have to pay, around 1000 Euros a year. My dog is more expensive than that. The childcare facilities offer half and full days of care, so you can adjust their care according to your work needs.

Assuming you were a single parent, you would be elligible for 3 years of free time off to care for the child, and free childcare while working. If your child is home alone sick you are given paid leave to care for it. Much of this is paid through health insurance or with taxes. It's a lot of paperwork but really worth it. Also, it isn't executed perfectly of course. A friend's husband chose to take "parent time" to be with his twin sons while his wife kept working. He was a fireman with awful schedules and she a manager who earned a LOT more. He kept being teased by his fellow firemen for being a "pussy". Until he started posting how great life without shift work can be with images of a stroll with the kids, relaxed breakfast at 10 am or a boat ride.

What I'm getting at is if the system supports child-raising much like ours does, it's even easier to share the workload - and joy - of staying at home to care for your kids. And this also means that the excuse to shoehorn motherhood/housewife stories on strong female characters is a lot more BS that ever before. At least for people who live in a country with decent care.
Life is very similar to boxing. Defeat is not declared when you fall down. It's declared when you can no longer get up.

Some people just want to watch the world burn... not because of the pretty colors but because after the fire, there comes rejuvination.

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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Post by sirus » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:08 am

Hey look, I'm gonna jump into this!

Ok, so first up Thor, a debate I've wanted to sink my teeth into for awhile, because I understand it.

This issue is not that Jane Foster now holds the "power of Thor," this issue is that in the comics Jane foster no "is Thor." These are two very different concepts. Because in the comics right now, Thor is not Thor, he is Odinson or whatever he's calling himself now I haven't kept track, and Jane Foster is Thor. The thing is they are treating the Thor name as a title and not a name.

Before Thor was always in some way Thor, even if he was contrived to be someone else using the hammer and becoming Thor. In recent times it was revealed that the Hammer just awakened him and he became himself again. Thus Thor is not a title, he is a person and Thor is his name.

Ok, so we get to this new thing, and I must make it clear that many people have been worthy and picked up the hammer. Even in the MCU the hammer was picked up by someone who was not Thor and did not become Thor just by picking up the hammer.

Now it has been stated that Jane Foster picked up the hammer and became Thor, not that she got the powers of Thor, but that she became Thor. Thus implying Thor is a title and if you use the hammer you become Thor, something expressly disproven in the past is now being stated as a fact. It has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with a really big retcon.

Ok, onto Wonder Woman. I have no clue what this has to do with anything, but from what I have seen Wonder Woman is an icon because she is a woman, that is it. I would not say that origin's matter to much because origins change depending on who is doing the writing and put simply Wonder Woman has had a few different origins over the years. They established the clay one it's been the thing for years, and now the new movie replaces it again. But it is apparently a good movie, don't ask me I don't watch anything in the DC movie universe after I walked out of the theater at the end of Man of Steel, like I was gone and then the credits, so I won't be seeing anything that takes place in this new timeline, sort of like I barely touched the New 52 and I am hesitant to touch Rebirth. But it looks like DC finally made a good one, but in my eyes it is a follow-up to 3 movies I can't stand, so I don't care.

And finally we can get to what this thread is about, a female doctor, I don't care. I haven't even heard her speak yet. It will depend on the writing and the acting as to how I feel about her and we're still a ways off. I am annoyed at some people saying that it's not enough and that she should be a POC woman. I'm not sure if this is a change for changes sake or she got the job because she was the best person for it. I know Peter was the only person to audition for the part and maybe the new Executive Producer did the same with the new doctor too. At this point I don't care. There are 2 Doctors I can't stand and I am in a minority who hates them, so I am not a good metric by any standpoint.

Also, Timelords are now proven to change genders, so why not a woman? I am in favor of it if she is good. If she is not it will be a black mark against women in more roles than just this because she won't just be a bad Doctor, she will be a bad Doctor and the only woman to play the part.
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Post by JM1776 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:52 am

RIP wrote:Besides, I must admit I am kind of weirded out that we actually share an opinion for once.
Evidently your judgment has improved tremendously since last we spoke. :tomato:
"Much of [Philip] Pullman’s (and [Richard] Dawkins’) reputation for being intelligent seems to be based largely on the reflexive American tendency to regard a British accent as conferring extra IQ points. Whenever these men speak about matters outside their narrow field of competence, they are complete ninnies and ignorami." – Mark Shea

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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Post by RIP » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:41 am

JM1776 wrote:
RIP wrote:Besides, I must admit I am kind of weirded out that we actually share an opinion for once.
Evidently your judgment has improved tremendously since last we spoke. :tomato:
Cheeky fella :P


@ sirus:
I think we kinda got distracted on the topic :D

But please, by all means, which doctors are you unhappy with? I am truely curios to hear your opinion. I promise I won't rip you to shreds :evil:
Life is very similar to boxing. Defeat is not declared when you fall down. It's declared when you can no longer get up.

Some people just want to watch the world burn... not because of the pretty colors but because after the fire, there comes rejuvination.

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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Post by sirus » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:19 am

RIP wrote:But please, by all means, which doctors are you unhappy with? I am truely curios to hear your opinion. I promise I won't rip you to shreds :evil:
I tend to favor more alien Doctors, and the more human they seem to me the less I like them. Also I tend to dislike the idea of the "dashing and handsome" Doctor. To me they need to be weird, slightly pompous, and seemingly inhuman in some way. I adore 11 because he was so not human or at the very least very odd for human. 12 has been amazing because he seems to have the aged wanderer thing down so well and he is odd. I love 7 and 2. 3 has some truly great moments and though I may not like him I felt the stories around him were very good. I loved 6's arrogance, he was a Time Lord, the highest ranking of his species (not all Gallefreyans are Timelords, only the highest ranking are). And how could I not love the strangeness of 4, he is iconic in the role and perhaps the most Doctor like to me of the all.

And then we move into those I am not as fond of.

1 has some great moments and some amazing episodes, but he never felt quite right to me, maybe it was just that he wasn't my first and thus I had other Doctor's before him so I had a very different idea of the character.

8 never got a chance to do much for me. The one movie he was in was not that great a story and I haven't heard enough Big Finish to really get him. I like him in what I've seen, but he feels more flat to me in what I've seen, like a generic Doctor that just doesn't stand out from the pack.

And now we get to the ones I don't like.

Starting with 5. 5 is too human for me. I loved his companions, but I was not overly fond of him.

9 is not the Doctor. I don't know who he is, but I know he is not the character I know and love. He's not altogether bad and he has a couple good episodes, but he just isn't the Doctor to me.

And then at last we come to 10. 10 is to human, but more so than even 5 was. I can summarize my distaste for him in one Episode, Midnight. I hate Midnight with a blind fury. But I'm not gonna rail against it here, instead I will just state that during the time of the 10th Doctor it seemed there was this real bitter undercurrent to it all. It seemed like the show was bitter and angry about aliens. There were so few "good aliens" that it was just odd. Torchwood had the same problem. But it all led up to the moment that almost made me quite watching the show, then end of the End of Time.

So yeah... I strongly dislike 10 and it always seemed odd to me so many like him...
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Post by RIP » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:27 am

I have to admit it's an interesting take on the Doctors. I can't say much of anyone before 9 though, I havent delved into that yet. Althoug admittedly I propably won't. Much of Doctor Who hasn't aged all that well.

However, I wonder how you feel about 11...
Life is very similar to boxing. Defeat is not declared when you fall down. It's declared when you can no longer get up.

Some people just want to watch the world burn... not because of the pretty colors but because after the fire, there comes rejuvination.

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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Post by sirus » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:55 am

RIP wrote:However, I wonder how you feel about 11...
Well I addressed him in my last post, but I'll go into more detail here, forgive me if my thoughts are all over the place but I am just going to stream of conciousness this reply.

I feel like 11 is one of the "Perfect Doctors" (right beside 2, 7, and 12). And what I mean by that is he is alien. He can be goofy, but there is a deep pain to him, hidden under it all. I loved his awkward romance with River and I loved his relationship with Amy and Rory. He was odd, but not so much as to be too odd. I love the notion of him being a man so damaged by time that he escapes into being a "Big Kid."

Now I should not that after "The End of Time" I quite Doctor Who. I had simply had enough of it all and could not take it anymore. But I am bad at quiting things so a week or so after it aired I finally watched "The Eleventh Hour." I did not have high hopes for it, as I said I was very much done with Doctor Who and I was watching it in what remained of my love of the show. 5 minutes in I paused it and ran and got my wife, for I was married in those days. Now she too had been burnt out by "The End of Time" and had no interest in seeing any more Doctor Who. I sat her down and restarted the episode. We watched it clear through and both agreed, though we could not put our finger on it, Doctor Who was back.

Now years later I can put my finger on it. In the time of 10 the stories were very emotional and would often leave us both feeling drained. Life was already stressful and neither of us at the time needed the strain of overly emotional drama in our Doctor Who. With 11 what came back was that it was now fun to watch Doctor Who. Matt Smith was so full of energy and fun that it was a delight to watch. As it went on he stayed fun, but got complex. And I loved the notion of a season long plot that built to the finale and boy did Moffat make some blow out finales. I know some didn't like them, but I adored them.

Series 5 was a blast and series 6 was also quite good. Series 7 was rough with the build up to the Ponds leaving, but then along came Clara and I rejoiced, at last a companion with some mystery behind them. It was interesting to say the least. And then came the specials. I loved them both. I ordered the 50th on DVD immediately after it aired (which was the only episode of Doctor Who I watched as it aired). And I own the copy of Doctor Who Adventures in Time and Space 50th Anniversary Edition (the rpg). So you may be able to tell I loved it.

And then came the finale of 11 and boy what a thing. It tied up the storyline of his whole era with a nice bow and then his closing lines as he was about to regenerate made me weep. And more unlike 10 going, 11's lines made me excited to see what 12 would be like. And boy did he not disappoint.
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Post by RIP » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:40 am

It's amazing just how different the associations are regarding to the Doctors.

In 9 I saw a brilliantly played tortured man who was finding himself after grand trauma.

In 10 I saw much emotion, but also much comedy and intruiging moralistic choices. His ongoing theme seems to be "This is what I must do to save them and I can bear it only just so".

11 never clicked with me. He's a stranger, true, and that was going for him. But I hated the fact that he kept important things from his companions, risked their lives and lied to them. One specific example would be an older Amy who had been stuck in some labyrinth. He told her he could save her, despite knowing he couldn't. Another example would be the fact that all of his foes united to imprison him. He didn't care that everyone felt he was a threat to the universe and was afraid of him. Sorry he was a cold fish to me. I didn't bother watching when he was the Doctor. I mean c'mon, he let his friends believe he was dead several times, ignoring the pain he was causing them.

I only saw 12 in season 8. I barely remember anything about him. I like the actor, he was deeply intense on Torchwood and in several other roles. As Doctor he made no mar either way. A "Meh" situation. No, I haven't seen 9 yet.
Life is very similar to boxing. Defeat is not declared when you fall down. It's declared when you can no longer get up.

Some people just want to watch the world burn... not because of the pretty colors but because after the fire, there comes rejuvination.

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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Post by sirus » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:07 am

Series 9 is really good. But it is hard to say if anyone else will like it based on my opinion. I tend to be an odd one when it comes to what I like and what I don't like. But for me series 9 was the best since series 5. More consistently good and it made the classic Cybermen something scary again.
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Post by RIP » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:26 pm

We will get to it eventually. Just not willing to shell out the vash for it when we can watch other stuff for free in the meantime.
Life is very similar to boxing. Defeat is not declared when you fall down. It's declared when you can no longer get up.

Some people just want to watch the world burn... not because of the pretty colors but because after the fire, there comes rejuvination.

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