Warp 10 and beyond

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Warp 10 and beyond

Post by sirus » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:29 pm

Ever since seeing the Star Trek Voyager episode Threshold I've been bugged at the idea of a maximum speed, especially at warp 10. One would think if warp 10 were as fast as you could go, at warp 9.9 some pretty crazy stuff would happen. Like how time begins to act funny as you get close to the speed of light.
Also several times in both TOS and TNG the speed of warp 10 meant nothing, simply another number on the warp scale.
I'm wondering what you guys think and if this has come up in any o your fan fiction.
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Re: Warp 10 and beyond

Post by LStyer » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:07 pm

sirus wrote:Ever since seeing the Star Trek Voyager episode Threshold I've been bugged at the idea of a maximum speed, especially at warp 10.
Warp 10 isn't consistently the "maximum speed." Even putting aside the notion that the scale was changed between TOS and TNG, the Traveller got the Enterprise-D above Warp 10 in "Where No One Has Gone Before," and while things got a little weird, no one turned into a salamander.
I'm wondering what you guys think and if this has come up in any o your fan fiction.
I think it makes a lot more sense to just have the scale keep going up with full numbers ("Warp 11, Warp 11.5, Warp 12 . . .") than to declare Warp 10 to be some kind of infinity and then keep adding "nines" to "Warp 9.9999."

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Re: Warp 10 and beyond

Post by sirus » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:17 pm

In the October 1995 issue of OMNI, science advisor Andre Bormanis stated the idea of warp factors beyond 10 in the alternative future was in a recalibration of the warp scale, as ships had gotten faster. Maybe warp 15 was set to be the ultimate speed limit instead, according to Bormanis, and warp 13 in that scale would have been the equivalent of warp 9.95 of the previous scale.
Hate to break it to you.

Though honestly I usually just ignore the idea of warp 10 being the maximum. Like Star Trek V, Threshold never happened in my book.
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Re: Warp 10 and beyond

Post by LStyer » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:00 pm

sirus wrote:Hate to break it to you.

Though honestly I usually just ignore the idea of warp 10 being the maximum. Like Star Trek V, Threshold never happened in my book.
I, too, am willing to ignore "Threshold." When I'm willing to ignore shit that actually happens or is said right there on screen, what chance to the off-screen mumblings of a technical advisor hold? That said, I don't necessarily count the high speeds in "All Good Things" because it was an "alternate future" and so those events didn't "really happen" anyway.

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Re: Warp 10 and beyond

Post by collierctr » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:12 pm

LStyer wrote:
sirus wrote:Hate to break it to you.

Though honestly I usually just ignore the idea of warp 10 being the maximum. Like Star Trek V, Threshold never happened in my book.
I, too, am willing to ignore "Threshold." When I'm willing to ignore shit that actually happens or is said right there on screen, what chance to the off-screen mumblings of a technical advisor hold? That said, I don't necessarily count the high speeds in "All Good Things" because it was an "alternate future" and so those events didn't "really happen" anyway.
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Re: Warp 10 and beyond

Post by McManus » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:54 pm

LOL what are you quoting Drake? "The Square Root of 69 is Ate something."
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Re: Warp 10 and beyond

Post by sirus » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:16 pm

Heres my extended thoughts on the subject and perhaps a bit of a rant. (\crdb/) (\crdb/)
To me if we limit the speed of warp travel to warp 10 theres a major problem still. In voyager it was said that at warp 9.6 it would take about 75 years to get from where they were in the Delta Quadrant to where they wanted to be in the Alpha Quadrant. Ignoring for a moment the wonky math needed fro that to be true. This means that traveling at warp with a standard warp engine starfleet could never explore that much of the galaxy with their standard "5 year mission" plans.
Though I do count the possible future as seen in All Good Things as just that, Possible. I think the reference to warp 13 was simple a reference to a totally new type of warp travel.
In the Voyager episode Hope and Fear we see for the first time the slipstream drive. This was said to be able to take the voyager crew from someplace in the Delta Quadrant to Earth in a matter of 3 months. Now I'm no expert, but if at warp 9.6 it would take them 75 years and a standard slipstream drive could do it in 3 months, slipstream would have to be going a hell of a lot faster than warp 10.
So perhaps in the "future" of the 24th century the model warp cores that are limited to warp 10 are simply phased out and newer faster models replace them. They still use the old warp scale, but they're actually not traveling at "warp" at all.
In some way this would allow for some aspects of Threshold to be used without limiting anything and not resorting to saying something like "well we just changed how fast warp is."
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Re: Warp 10 and beyond

Post by JaceRidley » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:19 pm

I'm trying to figure out why this thread even exists...

We've already seen plenty of canon evidence that "Warp 10" is not the fastest you can go... In fact, I think if anything, it's simply an unattainable speed on their contemporary engine scale.

Transwarp conduits. Slipstream drives. Translocation.

Plenty of methods of faster than Warp 10 travel exist...

It's just a different way of travelling. A different style of engine is used to create a similar effect.

Think of standard warp travel as a steam engine.
Transwarp and Slipstream become travel are the next evolution of the technology, much like an internal combustion engine was to steam.
Which also makes me feel as though speeds exceeding Transwarp and Slipstream Drive are possible... something akin to BSG's jump drive, where the travel is near instantaneous.

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Re: Warp 10 and beyond

Post by sirus » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:11 pm

I only meant to discuss how Threshold had affected how we write our fictions. It had come up a few times in my conversations with friends and I wondered what the people here thought on the subject. The warp 10 barrier is technically canon (the worst kind of canon as that it severly limits stories to come) and I wondered how others had addressed this problem.
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Re: Warp 10 and beyond

Post by JaceRidley » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:32 pm

sirus wrote:I only meant to discuss how Threshold had affected how we write our fictions. It had come up a few times in my conversations with friends and I wondered what the people here thought on the subject. The warp 10 barrier is technically canon (the worst kind of canon as that it severly limits stories to come) and I wondered how others had addressed this problem.
It only limits you or your stories if you decide it does. They are YOUR stories. Do what you want with them. Canon is a guideline and a ruleset, it's not a taskmaster and you mustn't not do anything that contradicts it.

The Warp 10 Barrier is simply a scale used to measure the distance in a realistic way.. Change your scale. Or develop new technology. I'm not really sure how it's limiting in any way unless you choose to let it limit you... which is a base tenet of any writing...

The only thing you're limited by is your own imagination.

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Re: Warp 10 and beyond

Post by amehatrekkie » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:31 pm

in the normal universe the speed of light is the maximum a particle can travel.....

in subspace, where it's FTL, the ultimate speed limit there is warp 10....

so, presumably, quantum slipstream is another dimension where even faster speeds are physically possible
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Re: Warp 10 and beyond

Post by AdmiralSirJohn » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:11 am

I agree with Ahmie.

In the TOTMM continuity, I treat Warp 10 the same way as Einstein treated C, and tend to "add 9's", but I have sidestepped it in "But It's Just a TV Show" by taking a page out of the SCE books and having the MM use a natural quantum slipstream to get a speed boost.
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Re: Warp 10 and beyond

Post by LStyer » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:49 am

sirus wrote:Now I'm no expert, but if at warp 9.6 it would take them 75 years and a standard slipstream drive could do it in 3 months, slipstream would have to be going a hell of a lot faster than warp 10.
Except under the "Warp 10 is the fastest" scale there is nothing faster than Warp 10, let alone a hell of a lot faster. "Warp 10" means infinity.

This is sort of analogous to "absolute zero." Whether you talk about 0K, −273.15 °C or −459.67 °F, you're talking about the same thing. And there is no such thing as -1K or -273.16°C or −459.74 °F.

"Warp 10" is the "absolute zero" of the Warp scale as presented in "Threshold." On that scale, if 9.6 takes 75 years, then that slipstream drive, which would take 3 months, must be achieving a speed of Warp 9.83339401 or some such nonsense. And a faster slipstream thing must run at Warp 9.8623434 or some slightly larger such nonsense. The faster you get, the closer to 10 you get, but you never actually reach it. So the decimal places after 9 would just get higher and longer.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the concept of a "fastest speed there is." I have a problem with them naming it, especially naming it Warp 10 when folks are routinely run around at Warp 8 or 9. That's just too small a scale for storytelling purposes.
So perhaps in the "future" of the 24th century the model warp cores that are limited to warp 10 are simply phased out and newer faster models replace them.
Again, the idea isn't that the warp cores are limited to Warp 10, it's that the speed they call Warp 10 is like the "absolute zero" of speed. What we would call "speed" is no longer there to be measured at Warp 10. If you improved a warp core that could reach Warp 9.9, you'd end up with a warp core that could reach Warp 9.95. And if you improved that you'd end up with a warp core that could reach Warp 9.995. And so on.

"Warp 13" is only possible if they have recalibrated the scale.

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Re: Warp 10 and beyond

Post by LStyer » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:53 am

ambessalion wrote:so, presumably, quantum slipstream is another dimension where even faster speeds are physically possible
Right -- they're "doing something else." Even so, if "Warp 10" is infinity, then whatever else it is they are doing would just translate to Warp 9 point a bunch of ever increasing decimal places on that particular scale. Which is why I think that particular scale is pretty pointless in the context of Star Trek. Again, I'm not against the concept of infinity, but why peg it at 10 in a fictional universe where you routinely have people running at 8s and 9s?

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Re: Warp 10 and beyond

Post by amehatrekkie » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:08 pm

while a lot of ships (usually military only) can achieve warps 8 and 9...they don't unless the mission requires some level of urgency....so those speeds are pretty much for emergencies only....

while i agree that the warp scale of 10 is somewhat of a joke....the idea of a low number warp scale, with the top number of the scale is 'infinite' does make sense....

for example, setting the top speed at warp 1000 would be just as ridiculous....probably the best scale would be 20 (and readjusting the old warp10 speeds to the new scale)
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