A serious breach of ethics?

Star Trek related discussion, information, links, etc.

Moderator: Dancyer McCoy

Forum rules
For those who haven't noticed the Forum Rules have been revised. It might be a good idea to take a look at them if you haven't read them for awhile. You'll find them in the Forum Rules forum at the top of the index page.

A serious breach of ethics?

Postby CamSPD » Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:50 pm

I have not seen the documentary myself -- Cheile brought this to my attention, worried the manip of Seven might be one of mine -- but apparently the History Channel has aired/will air a documentary on the 50 years of Star Trek and in it appears at least two fan photomanipulations they're allegedly claiming are set photos/promo photos. Included is Seven of Nine in a First Contact uniform. It's not mine, but I did recognize it as belonging to one of the members here.

It's Gazomg's work, and the artist signature is cropped out of frame (the original is in the Random Trek 2 gallery on his website). This was also done to a manipulation of B'Elanna and her child. Gaz, might you possibly want to look into this? At the very least, I thought you should know.

Here's a link to a copy of a Tweet by Trek Core --and a response by Jeri Ryan -- on the subject that Cheile showed me: http://emmikamikatze.tumblr.com/post/148994667356/emmikamikatze-ds9vgrconfessions-when-a
"Ah! She is a writer!"
We are free because of the brave.
Image
User avatar
CamSPD
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
 
Posts: 3105
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:52 am
Location: Space, the final frontier.

Re: A serious breach of ethics?

Postby Michael » Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:18 pm

Wow! :bleek:

I am stunned the History Channel hires people to do documentaries who go to Google, download images, and then put them in their documentaries. Even if it were a Paramount publicity photo, they'd have to get clearance from Paramount and pay. Doesn't the History Channel have a legal department to watch for this kind of stuff?

Gazomg might very well be the first person ever to be able to get money out of a Trek photomanipulation. That is assuming he wants to pursue this.

Please do keep us updated on this.
-Michael Gray
Image
"In Great Deeds Something Abides"
User avatar
Michael
Senior Admin
Senior Admin
 
Posts: 12315
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 10:32 pm
Location: North of the North Pole

Re: A serious breach of ethics?

Postby Gazomg » Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:26 pm

hahahaha

my star trek beyond wallpaper has been used by over a dozen websites already and now the history channel use my pic.

i am happy the quality was good enough to fool even the trek experts
Image

MANIPULATIONS ON MY SITE - 1730 - February 22nd-2018
User avatar
Gazomg
Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
 
Posts: 1877
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:11 am
Location: The Emerald Isle

Re: A serious breach of ethics?

Postby CamSPD » Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:36 pm

Well, Gaz isn't the only one. But yeah, kinda stunning that their people clearly didn't do their fact-checking. To the well trained eye, it's clear those are both manipulations and not actual promo shots. Especially the Seven one -- as anyone who's ever watched an episode of Voyager (from season 4 on) knows she never once wore a First Contact uniform.

I wouldn't care if someone used one of my manips in a documentary so long as I was a) asked first, and b) given proper credit. Both the B'Elanna manip and Gaz's 7 of 9 had the artist signature removed. It would also be nice if the doc makers actually acknowledged that they were examples of fan passion and not promoting them as actual set photos.
"Ah! She is a writer!"
We are free because of the brave.
Image
User avatar
CamSPD
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
 
Posts: 3105
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:52 am
Location: Space, the final frontier.

Re: A serious breach of ethics?

Postby Michael » Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:39 pm

CamSPD wrote:It would also be nice if the doc makers actually acknowledged that they were examples of fan passion and not promoting them as actual set photos.

I agree completely.
-Michael Gray
Image
"In Great Deeds Something Abides"
User avatar
Michael
Senior Admin
Senior Admin
 
Posts: 12315
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 10:32 pm
Location: North of the North Pole

Re: A serious breach of ethics?

Postby Gazomg » Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:43 pm

CamSPD wrote: To the well trained eye, it's clear those are both manipulations and not actual promo shots. .



Its obvious to trek fans that she never wore that uniform,
but in the visual sense and quality of work I do think the quality is good enough to most fool people, especially non trek fans and the fact it did proves my point.

That said the people doing the research should have known she never wore that uniform and as so called experts they should have known better.
as to my signature being removed, that i cannot say as the full size image was not shown and my signature was in the bottom corner.

I would like to have the pic credited obviously but other than email the station not sure what else to do.
Image

MANIPULATIONS ON MY SITE - 1730 - February 22nd-2018
User avatar
Gazomg
Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
 
Posts: 1877
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:11 am
Location: The Emerald Isle

Re: A serious breach of ethics?

Postby Cheile » Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:34 pm

Gazomg, I have spoken to people who have watched the show in question. your signature has been deliberately cropped out, as has that of Gates Hepburn (creator of the Torres and baby manip that was also used).

whether or not it's 'good enough' to fool anyone really isn't the point. the theft is. It's odd that you aren't more concerned about that?

also I would tweet them to confront them. Gates has already done so via twitter.
-- Che

Stormlight Designs

[icon by me][/i]
User avatar
Cheile
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:59 am
Location: CA

Re: A serious breach of ethics?

Postby CamSPD » Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:40 pm

Hence why I said "To the well trained eye".

Anyone with any experience in photomanipulation can tell it's a manipulation because with just one look and they would notice it's flaws (of which there are a few). Truth be told, even before I got into manipulation, I could tell a fake from the real thing, and that's not only because of my being a Trek fan -- it's because I have an eye for detail. I think that it fooled anyone (if it truly did) has more to do with the fact that whoever included it in the documentary didn't do their job properly more than the quality of the workmanship passed muster. You can't really say a non-Trek fan is "fooled" when they don't even care enough about the source material to pay attention. They'd look at those pictures and say/think "Oh, a Star Trek picture" and move on.

To truly consider someone fooled would be a Star Trek fan looking at it and wondering, "When was Seven in a First Contact uniform?" And Cheile is right: it's not about whether anyone was fooled by the workmanship, it's about the fact that someone used your work without your permission as well as took steps to not give proper credit to you as the artist.
"Ah! She is a writer!"
We are free because of the brave.
Image
User avatar
CamSPD
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
 
Posts: 3105
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:52 am
Location: Space, the final frontier.

Re: A serious breach of ethics?

Postby Gazomg » Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:45 pm

I just watched the show and the image was not shown in its entirety, the signature was actually up it the top right corner
but the camera only focused on the part they wanted to show, so technically they can claim they never cut it but they avoided showing the full image and that was deliberate.
Image

MANIPULATIONS ON MY SITE - 1730 - February 22nd-2018
User avatar
Gazomg
Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
 
Posts: 1877
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:11 am
Location: The Emerald Isle

Re: A serious breach of ethics?

Postby Cheile » Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:45 pm

CamSPD wrote: And Cheile is right: it's not about whether anyone was fooled by the workmanship, it's about the fact that someone used your work without your permission as well as took steps to not give proper credit to you as the artist.


okay this thought literally popped into my head a bit ago....

Gazomg, I am not sure what sites are using your Beyond wallpapers but I am going to guess they aren't turning any sort of profit. meanwhile you COULD say that THC is profiting wrongly off your manip because they are getting $$$$$ advertising money from whatever companies are running their commercials during this show's airing. for that, I would definitely confront them in a polite manner via social media.
-- Che

Stormlight Designs

[icon by me][/i]
User avatar
Cheile
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:59 am
Location: CA

Re: A serious breach of ethics?

Postby Gazomg » Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:35 pm

CamSPD wrote:Hence why I said "To the well trained eye".

Anyone with any experience in photomanipulation can tell it's a manipulation because with just one look and they would notice it's flaws (of which there are a few). Truth be told, even before I got into manipulation, I could tell a fake from the real thing, and that's not only because of my being a Trek fan -- it's because I have an eye for detail. I think that it fooled anyone (if it truly did) has more to do with the fact that whoever included it in the documentary didn't do their job properly more than the quality of the workmanship passed muster. You can't really say a non-Trek fan is "fooled" when they don't even care enough about the source material to pay attention. They'd look at those pictures and say/think "Oh, a Star Trek picture" and move on.

To truly consider someone fooled would be a Star Trek fan looking at it and wondering, "When was Seven in a First Contact uniform?" And Cheile is right: it's not about whether anyone was fooled by the workmanship, it's about the fact that someone used your work without your permission as well as took steps to not give proper credit to you as the artist.


You seem to be very defensive and compelled to bring up its flaws, I never said the image was perfect.
You claim to have an eye for detail...newsflash, we all do on here, its not a gift just you possess .
On one hand you are commenting as a trek fan and how you know all this and that and now trying to tell me what NON trek fans know or don't know as well.
You have no way of knowing what non trek fans think or dont think, nor do I.
What I do know is it aired, and of all the trek fans around the world watching the show very few trek fans actually copped it or picked up on it.
Now you can argue they did not notice etc.

My own personal opinion is that someone was foolish enough to take it as a real pic, since it was posted in with genuine real promo pics and we can debate that til the cows come home.
Maybe if I ask them why it was used and not given the credit I might get their official answer



As for the researchers not doing their job correctly I agree., they should know and have done better
Image

MANIPULATIONS ON MY SITE - 1730 - February 22nd-2018
User avatar
Gazomg
Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
 
Posts: 1877
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:11 am
Location: The Emerald Isle

Re: A serious breach of ethics?

Postby Gazomg » Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:45 pm

Cheile wrote:
CamSPD wrote: And Cheile is right: it's not about whether anyone was fooled by the workmanship, it's about the fact that someone used your work without your permission as well as took steps to not give proper credit to you as the artist.


okay this thought literally popped into my head a bit ago....

Gazomg, I am not sure what sites are using your Beyond wallpapers but I am going to guess they aren't turning any sort of profit. meanwhile you COULD say that THC is profiting wrongly off your manip because they are getting $$$$$ advertising money from whatever companies are running their commercials during this show's airing. for that, I would definitely confront them in a polite manner via social media.



If they did a piece on the show saying fans have created artwork and then shown a load of pics that were artist created then that would have been grand, but the researchers who were working on a trek show should have known that once they saw a signature on a pic, whether they thought it was real or not should have investigated the source.

As said earlier I cannot prove either way what those people were fully thinking but give my own opinion.
Part of me is glad it was on the show and hope it was a genuine mistake as they might have been fooled,
however if they deliberately knew it was a photoshop due to the many flaws as campsd is so happy and quick to point out and still aired it without permission and deliberately editing so the logo did not appear then that is bad form and no mistake....well that puts a different prospective on things.

I have no dealing ever in these matters and welcome advice on how i should go about enquiring and where to exactly.
Image

MANIPULATIONS ON MY SITE - 1730 - February 22nd-2018
User avatar
Gazomg
Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
 
Posts: 1877
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:11 am
Location: The Emerald Isle

Re: A serious breach of ethics?

Postby amehatrekkie » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:29 pm

Crazy. I can understand the person that put it in not knowing the image is a fake, especially if he or she didn't know star trek from star wars. But the cbs/paramount person who approved the documentary should have known better.
Ahmie K-[ay][aka Adam Kriegel], Captain of the Department of Weird yea i'm weird
STPMA WORLDBUILDING EXPERT[ RIP MJ!!] Normal people scare meAging is inevitable, maturity is optional
https://imgur.com/a/bUvNm
User avatar
amehatrekkie
-the weird one-
-the weird one-
 
Posts: 10489
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:53 pm
Location: Earth, North American Continent, Southeast USA

Re: A serious breach of ethics?

Postby Cheile » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:42 pm

ambessalion wrote:Crazy. I can understand the person that put it in not knowing the image is a fake, especially if he or she didn't know star trek from star wars. But the cbs/paramount person who approved the documentary should have known better.


I'm doubting that CBS/Paramount had anything to do with this production or those images would not have been in there.

Gazomg wrote:If they did a piece on the show saying fans have created artwork and then shown a load of pics that were artist created then that would have been grand, but the researchers who were working on a trek show should have known that once they saw a signature on a pic, whether they thought it was real or not should have investigated the source.

As said earlier I cannot prove either way what those people were fully thinking but give my own opinion.
Part of me is glad it was on the show and hope it was a genuine mistake as they might have been fooled,
however if they deliberately knew it was a photoshop due to the many flaws as campsd is so happy and quick to point out and still aired it without permission and deliberately editing so the logo did not appear then that is bad form and no mistake....well that puts a different prospective on things.

I have no dealing ever in these matters and welcome advice on how i should go about enquiring and where to exactly.


Well you said above you watched the show - did they mention anything before showing either your image or Gates' about how fans create fanart that includes photomanips? From what others who've seen it have said, I'm thinking the answer is no.

and you are correct that your watermark on the image would have been a dead giveaway. same with Gates' signature - while hers is fainter and at the bottom, it's obvious they cropped a couple inches off the bottom to remove her watermark. I've attached her stolen manip below.

finally as for dealing with them, I would do what Gates has done - she tweeted them about it and tagged them. She also made a notice on the show's IMDB page. :lol: she said if you want to be credited, she will edit the imdb page again to add your name and hers.

Gates' manip:
Image
-- Che

Stormlight Designs

[icon by me][/i]
User avatar
Cheile
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:59 am
Location: CA

Re: A serious breach of ethics?

Postby Gazomg » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:46 pm

thanks cheile.

A nice manip by gates who I believe goes by the name belanna as well.

Am gonna contact the history channel as well....just need to find the email address as all i finding at the moment is history channel uk, new zealand and australia.... :D
Image

MANIPULATIONS ON MY SITE - 1730 - February 22nd-2018
User avatar
Gazomg
Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
 
Posts: 1877
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:11 am
Location: The Emerald Isle

Next

Return to Star Trek Related

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

cron