Discovery Trailer

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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby JM1776 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:04 am

Of course, in that sense Jay is spot on. But that's not what I'm talking about.

Granted, it goes without saying that so long as producers feel they can profit significantly from Star Trek, we'll see a version of it, even if it's some lurching caricature like Abrams-Trek.

It just won't be our Star Trek. Even the worst of the six series, Voyager and Enterprise, had elements we'd all recognize as part and parcel of the franchise's true spirit, in sufficient quantity to satisfy our cravings, at least in part.

Discovery looks, at the moment, like the first series that won't. Even The Orville may have more.

And that's what I'm talking about, here.

Does this smack of "No True Scotsman"? Absolutely. Do I give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut? Not in the least.
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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby sirus » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:55 am

JM1776 wrote:Does this smack of "No True Scotsman"? Absolutely. Do I give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut? Not in the least.


Personally I read this as more of a "Ship of Theseus" kind of thing. Or rather how many parts can be changed without the whole being something different. I think the first time Klingon we're changed it was tolerated because Kirk called them Klingon and if anyone could identify a Klingon it was him.

TNG risked all by changing almost everything, yet right there was a Klingon with the forehead we had come to accept. They spoke in terms and words we had heard before and even had a very early cameo to let us know it was still the same universe.

DS9 launched and had Picard in the Pilot to usher us in. A side character from TNG was promoted to series regular on DS9 to ease us in.

DS9 introduced the Maquis in the pilot of Voyager we got Quark there to say yes, same world.

Enterprise again risked a lot. Cameos couldn't work, but they could use familiar design choices. Terms we knew were once more on full display and we had our old friends the Vulcans there, even if they weren't written quite right add to that the colors on the jumpsuits so it looked kind of like a step between what we see today and Starfleet uniforms and it works.

And now comes Discovery. Everything is again changed. No cameos to carry us through. All the designs look different. The only Vulcan we see is Sarek, but as he is recast we must also swallow the tough pill of seeing a new Sarek again. New uniforms that don't seem really linked to any uniforms we've seen before in terms of design or color. And a new adopted sister for a character we already know will never speak of this character.

Have they changed so much that now the "Ship of Theseus" is no longer the same ship? Maybe. I think that's what people fear.

And the Orville has the bonus that it looks kind of like the old ship we all knew and liked. Like the parts striped from the ship we knew were collected and built into another ship.

As if there is no true Star Trek show as there can be no true "Ship of Theseus" once you have taken it apart to this extent.
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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby JM1776 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:03 pm

Similar principle expressed differently.
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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby jayphailey » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:32 pm

JM1776 wrote:It just won't be our Star Trek. Even the worst of the six series, Voyager and Enterprise, had elements we'd all recognize as part and parcel of the franchise's true spirit, in sufficient quantity to satisfy our cravings, at least in part.

Discovery looks, at the moment, like the first series that won't. Even The Orville may have more.

And that's what I'm talking about, here.


Well, the problem there is that what makes Star Trek feel like Star Trek, what makes it good Star Trek is somewhat subjective. And there will be no way to say "This has no Star Trek in it" or "That has a little bit of Star Trek in it" until we look at each episode.

Which I do plan to do, when I can. It might take a while.

I used to pirate episodes of shows I liked. I did that for years. These days, security is too locked down. It looks like late Napster out there.

So I sprung for Netflix to see Iron Fist and The Defenders. Now, I discover that many of the shows and movies I'd like to see are not available on netflix.

So we'll see what happens.

But I will be in the seat to see Discovery. Eventually. if I can.
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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby jayphailey » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:33 pm

Also, I agree. If they do Orville properly it has every chance of being a BETTER Trek series.

I'll be watching it, too
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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby jayphailey » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:56 pm

sirus wrote:
Personally I read this as more of a "Ship of Theseus" kind of thing.

(Snip)

As if there is no true Star Trek show as there can be no true "Ship of Theseus" once you have taken it apart to this extent.


I appreciate the reference. TBH I had to go google it to make sure I knew what you were talking about. I also appreciate the level of thought here.

I talked about this long ago. I made my own image of Star Trek. I realized that my opinions of what makes good Star Trek are mine alone and that I was filtering TOS for stuff I thought was good and excluding stuff I thought was bad.

So it was like I realized I had my own internal ship. My own conceptual ship. So whenever TPTB changed something, I could look at it and say "That's good, I like that." or "That's dumb, I won't use that."

Instead of boards and planks I described the components as lego pieces. So I take the lego pieces I like from "Official Star Trek" and leave the ones I don't like behind.

A lot of people have real problems separating their own internal filter of what makes good star trek and official star trek.

Some folks have trouble telling their preferences apart from reality. This is understandable.

I don't want to denigrate someone's pain when TPTB make choices that conflict with their own preferences. That pain comes from not separating the two.

I guess the question really is, how do you want to handle your preferences about Star Trek? TPTB are always going to do something that violates someone's preferences somewhere.

If you're honest with yourself, Gene Roddenberry probably did some stuff with Star Trek we wouldn't prefer. It's probably not the same thing for all of us.

So this new series. It'll be new planks and lego pieces.

I view all "official" Star Trek as a submission to my own internal image of Star Trek. That's how I resolved the pain of the official star trek violating my preferences.

There are other ways. Some people just left it all behind. Some people just refuse to deal with any Trek past point X.

I have little patience for people who say "This new Star Trek violates my preferences, therefore Star Trek is dead." You don't get to decide if Star Trek is dead for me. That's my decision.

If you want to say "I just can't handle this new Star Trek, and I will continue no further" That's your bag, man. Do what you gotta do. But you don't get to dictate my preferences to me.
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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby sirus » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:39 am

I tend to View the ship of Thesesus very simply. We each have own own definition of the thing, Star Trek and for the most part we agree as to what it is, aside from some squabbles about Enterprise, NuTrek, and a handful of episodes through the years.

However I think every time Star trek changes it loses some of the identity it had. The more it changes the more of that identity is lost, or the more of the the percieved identity is lost. But new pieces are added each time. Thus things change and things remain.

Everyone has a line. A lin at which time it has been changed so much where the ship no longer looks right and can no longer be considered the right thing, But the line is very different for different for a number of people. I suspect JM would say after DS9 that line was crossed more and more. For me that line started to be crossed with the reboot. But for some the line has not been crossed and may never be crossed. Star Trek is Star Trek because it says so on the label. To them Orville can only be a pale imitation, while as to me I see more of the real thing in Orville than in what they would see as the real thing. And this is simply because I drew the line somewhere else.

I also think a lot of us who are nah sayers of Discoovery and think it will "kill the franchise" almost want it to. We want CBS and Paramount to stop making new versions that simply do not seem to understand the universe we love and instead we want the fans who do understand it to make Star Trek. I mean I don't think CBS\Paramount would have given a crap about any fan film if they didn't have a movie and a TV show in the works. So amybe Star Trek needs to die in one sense so it can live in another.

Or maybe stuff like The Orville and Renegades is the directions to go, te idea of Star Trek in all but name.

In my mind the future of Star Trek is not with CBS\Paramount it is with the fans and it will be by their hands that it either lives or dies.
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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby JM1776 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:02 pm

This seems to have drifted from primarily "I think this" to a bit too much of "this is why what you think is wrong/limited to your little perspective", and rather than getting down and dirty, I'm just going to bow out, now.
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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby sirus » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:25 am

Sorry, my exploration of this whole topic has been much more of "Why are Star Trek fans already fully accepting Discovery?" and "Why are there others who find this version of Star Trek to not be Star Trek at all?" I don't mean to step on toes, but rather to try and figure out what is behind all of this. I have seen pictures of fans already in costumes of the new uniforms, and I personally would rather own an Orville uniform.

My goal with the "Ship of Theseus" line of reasoning is to figure out if it is possible for something to be Star Trek and to not be Star Trek at the same time, working from both the perspective of is Star Trek Discovery Star Trek? and Is The Orville Star Trek?

To me these are questions I need to ask and examine and I am sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes with my line of thought or implied in anyway that anyone else's point of view is "invalid" or "incorrect." That was never my idea, I only wanted to try and figure out why some had jumped so fully on board with Discovery while others seemed to reject it.
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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby ambessalion » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:56 pm

i just hope that they develop the nick myers khan idea, i'm pretty sure discovery, the way they've planned it, won't last beyond a season.
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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby jayphailey » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:48 pm

sirus wrote:To me these are questions I need to ask and examine and I am sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes with my line of thought or implied in anyway that anyone else's point of view is "invalid" or "incorrect." That was never my idea, I only wanted to try and figure out why some had jumped so fully on board with Discovery while others seemed to reject it.


I think Joe was reacting more to my opinion than yours. I don't see anything you've written as staking out a "right" or "Wrong" position. I think my statement above did.
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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby JM1776 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:54 am

jayphailey wrote:
sirus wrote:To me these are questions I need to ask and examine and I am sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes with my line of thought or implied in anyway that anyone else's point of view is "invalid" or "incorrect." That was never my idea, I only wanted to try and figure out why some had jumped so fully on board with Discovery while others seemed to reject it.


I think Joe was reacting more to my opinion than yours. I don't see anything you've written as staking out a "right" or "Wrong" position. I think my statement above did.


Quite correct. Jay and I have known each other for years, and danced this dance once too often. I no longer feed the part of myself that vents my spleen. If I'm less irritated sometime in the near future I'll continue the discussion with something substantive.

If not ... I save ranting for my rants, now.

Suffice it to say that I agree with some of what he said, and think parts of it are complete crap. I wager that's how he feels about much of my own commentary.
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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby Sabre » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:58 pm

ambessalion wrote:i just hope that they develop the nick myers khan idea, i'm pretty sure discovery, the way they've planned it, won't last beyond a season.


really, from what i read about this, this would be a show all around Khan living on Ceti Alpha (whatever the number), right ?

I mean, how is that Star Trek, And more important, why would we want to see that at all ?
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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby jayphailey » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:48 am

I am not interested in powerful villains.

I am interested in stories where the protagonists have to delve into what it means to be a good person and how to do that.

Dressed up with swashbuckling action.

The stories are more fun when they move.

But just people beating the crap out of each other, we have wrestling for that
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Re: Discovery Trailer

Postby JM1776 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:34 am

jayphailey wrote:I am interested in stories where the protagonists have to delve into what it means to be a good person and how to do that.


How dare you be an adult?
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